I like being British. Am I proud of being British? Well, to be honest, not always. It’s not that I’m not proud, it’s just that, well, I’m British and being proud is not seen as a good thing. After all, as we all know, ‘pride comes before a fall’ – and when someone has been proud, we see their fall as just desserts.
But I do like being British. Firstly, I speak English (obviously, proper English – none of your mispronounced, misspelt, New World stuff for me). In spite of the fact that the Chinese language (I forget which one of them) is actually spoken by more people in the world and Spanish is up and coming, English is still the universal language for communication. I thank our Empire for that (and the Americans power following its demise).
Secondly, we have ‘ways’ of being; ‘ways’ of doing things that I use to my advantage, especially here.
And so I was reading this and the fact that the Immigration Minister has pronounced that there should be instruction on ‘how to queue’ because that is at the heart of Britishness.
There again, in my opinion, is the problem with people. They get ‘Britishness’ completely wrong. It’s not the queuing that’s important although, yes, people who jump the queue will result in a load of people who feel resentment and, these days, anger. No Britishness is all about ‘not standing out’ from the crowd. Or, rather, not making yourself stand out from the crowd.
Of course, if just ‘not standing out from the crowd’ were essential, we would have no famous British people until they were dead. The thing is that you are allowed to stand out, providing that it’s not because you have been making yourself stand out – i.e. someone can push you forward as long as that someone isn’t you.
Of course, the correct response to this, should you find yourself standing out there, through no real fault of your own, is to be completely self-effacing; shy but not embarrassingly so; properly attribute your ‘success’ to others or the team; be truly grateful that there are others who think you are there (out of the crowd) even if, of course, you feel you did not possibly deserve it, etc.
Of course, there are always exceptions. In fact, there is one exception to this overall rule. That is when you are drunk. And by drunk I mean very drunk (totally pissed, wasted, rip-roaringly drunk). Then you can do anything you want – but, of course, you must regret it and suffer for it from the next morning and on until the end of your life!
Which is why I found the article so funny. Hadley Freeman’s take on what is actually required to be British I disagree with, in the main but I will go through the five points:
1. I’ve always found that dinner at 8 means that you will sit down to eat at about 2 minutes past 8 – unless there are late-comers, who will be frowned upon as they have made themselves stand out!
2. We don’t always (in fact rarely) react with squealing excitement. Understated excitement means not making yourself stand out.
3. OK, I agree with 3 – or you say something like ‘Oh this old thing – bought it years ago’ as if that makes up for the fact that whatever it is is the most stunning item of clothing in the room.
4. No one really cares how well Marks and Spencers do – what’s important is that the quality of their underpants is second-to-none and that their food quality is absolutely amazing but sooooo expensive.
5. Just not true. We do date. We also court and, as she correctly says, ‘pull’. But she misinterprets ‘pull’. When you go out on a date it is with a predefined person for a meal or a drink or to the cinema. When you ‘go out on the pull’ you are single and very much hoping that, by the end of the night, you have pulled someone who may, or may not, be a future date.
However, I just loved the end bit to number 5. This is so true, especially of me (although I found online dating a way around the getting drunk bit). But, just for those of you who don’t read the article, she says that the British method of coupling is like this:
go to a party, get extremely drunk, drunkenly kiss someone you have been making eyes at for some time but obviously never spoke to because you were sober then, go home with them, move in with them the next day, marry them.
It really made me laugh.
I found your writing excellent. I am an inter-cultural maniac (I seldom understate lol) and trying to understand the British culture is one of pleasures of my life.
I’ve compared your take with Hadley Freeman’s and was hit by your different opinions. She seems to be a foreigner trying to be British since “born in New York to Jewish parents, she attended Oxford University etc.†(wiki), a very cute USAer btw – one doesn’t understand why today ALL people who have success are also at least cute, but I’m digressing.
While she seemed a bit confused, your ideas appear crystal-clear instead imo, and it could be you’re the real thing, not her, although you probably refer to Englishness, since being British, doesn’t it encompass a lot of subcultures?
Num 5 really made me roll on the floor laughing. I saw it in real-life parties (and in movies).
Your main point seems the not standing out as a typical British (or English) trait.
Well, what can I say, I admire it, and mostly attribute it to clime & history, plus my admiration – we have discussed it ad nauseam – comes from my nation where (vain)glory and boasting things is common and whose ancient roots (Roman and Greek Fame) doesn’t make it a virtue at all, it being a FLAW, no excuses.
Nonetheless, your main point, ‘not standing out’ I confess I both agree and disagree, people and folks being complicated stuff, not black and white stuff.
The British are often sincerely self-less beyond any doubt. And yet, being they human too, they /you – pls do not feel offended – have imo your own understated way of standing out (out of the continent, out of Europe, or out of people who express their emotions in ways you consider inferior since self-control is your god (and possibly your prison).
And here, let me add, is where – the paradox is only apparent – understating results in overstating. I’ll explain.
‘Understatement can be a terrible weapon’ my father used to say. He was – well, this is an outing from Man of Roma – an iron-willed protestant-origined (Waldenses) but atheist Piedmontese (eastern Alpine region) who never quite accepted me because I was too similar to my Roman mother.
He never raised his voice, scorned who had no control – like me, who didn’t much at that time – and was a master of Piedmont’s understatement, different from your ways but possibly with worst sides, though I won’t get into that here.
I’ll just say, when he understood he was about to die soon, he told me in his extremely controlled, calm – non human but admirable to me – gentilezza piemontese:
“Sono disperato … e ti voglio bene.” I’ll confess I am proud of the way he died.
What my ranting means is that, when the British say:
“I’m inclined to think you are stepping on my toe†it can be much more effective, subtly outspoken (high-browish) and possibly (pls again don’t be offended dear Andy) more offensive than just saying:
In Roman: “Aho, ettogli ‘sta fetta dar mio piede, cazzo!â€Â
In American: “Hey man, get you F*** boot off my toe will ya?â€Â
Don’t know if I made any sense.
MoR! A pleasure to see you here, as always.
Firstly, the reason why they are cute is because, these days, with the media running the show, so to speak, and people’s attention spans emulating that of a goldfish, looks are everything, don’t you think? Which is why, on a slightly different subject, Susan Boyle, on television the night before last, at the San Remo festival, was so endearing to us British – she is the opposite of cute and so, being the underdog in looks, so deserving of our support in the competition in which she took part.
And, yet, as I write, she does, in fact, fit this topic well. Whilst she entered the competition she made herself ‘stand out’ but was humble and ‘nice’ and not shouting about how good she was. As a result, we could praise her and say that she was wonderful. In fact, the rise and fall of any celebrity in the UK shows the truth of what I say. The press and media (and general public) build up someone because they have talent and have shown they work hard – but, woe betide them should they then think that they are in any way deserving of the praise and the honours – for it is at that point that the press/media and the whole country turn against them. The people that survive the stardom and remain beloved by the British are those that remain humble and grateful for the chance to be where they are.
But, don’t get us wrong, we both admire and despise those who can boast of their achievements – one of the reasons we have this love/hate relationship with those brashy Americans!
You’re right to disagree with me – after all, this was a generalisation and there are British people who are not like that at all. If they are eccentric we allow it; if they are foreign we also allow it (but with some disdain, even so). If they are neither eccentric (that is completely over the top) nor foreign then we hate it.
Self-control is, indeed, our prison and yet it is highly sought after. I use it all the time. And, by use it, I mean that I have great self-control – but a slight change in expression or a change in the way I speak makes people, here, immediately assume that I am very angry – it makes me difficult to read and for them (that is Italians here) they are wary and, quite possibly, a little scared of me. It’s as if, because I react in such a different way to them, they are unsure at what point I will explode – or something like that, I guess.
You are so very right with the ‘understatement’ thing. again, like the self-control, the art of understating becomes a formidable weapon used against all – particularly if they know you a little. Together with the self-control, it can be effective in destroying the opposition/enemy and shocking to those who don’t use it. It can be terribly offensive and yet, as individual words, nothing is offensive.
Even an ‘I’m sorry’ or ‘thank you very much’ said with the right inflection and in the right tone can be more offensive than any amount of swearing or shouting.
Yes, I’m afraid that number 5 is so very true and I am very guilty of it myself. That, of course, makes it all the funnier! I’m glad you enjoyed that bit.
You may say English and, being an Englishman, I’m certain that a Scotsman or Welshman would say that they were different but, actually, in this respect, we are almost all the same and so it remain Britishness. At least, as far as I am concerned. You may have read some of the comments (there were a lot of comments after all, having this ‘foreigner’ try to explain to us what makes us British is just like a red rag to a bull) and you will note that there are many differing opinions, as one would expect. some of them are valid and some not but I still think that the underlying thing that makes us British is this feeling that we should strive not to ‘stand out’. I suppose, in today’s language we would say something like ‘being cool’.
Well, you know the old saying ‘Mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the mid-day sun’! Of course, the Englishman will try his best to look cool even if, underneath he is sweating like a pig
To me, you made a lot of sense. Thanks for the time and trouble you took.
Dear Andy,
It is always a pleasure for me too, no pain really. Said it simply, you being honest, deep and pensive, plus truly British – which, to a Roman, it is like saying another galaxy – you are like a punto di riferimento a bit, even though I am always away because of my research that I care for more than anything else, it taking me away from the present and from reality and plunging me deeper into orphism & the ancient philosophises, which is making me a bit lunatic and progressively isolated, to the extent it’s sort of getting dangerous for my inner equilibrium I’m afraid.
Thus being said, and not controlling my thoughts any more lol, I’ll reply-comment about two different ways of being narcissistic, and on the fact that every complex culture – such as ours are – thinks they are gods, and the rest …well, a bit, or a lot, inferior.
and people’s attention spans emulating that of a goldfish
Ah ah, well said, one of the reasons I less and less watch TV.
A proposito, Susan Boyle stunned me. I had never seen her and I don’t watch San Remo.
but, woe betide them should they then think that they are in any way deserving of the praise and the honours – for it is at that point that the press/media and the whole country turn against them
Well, this attitude of your people vs celebrities etc. is admirable (‘UK has got talent’ might be worth watching to get a feel of the common UK people on that) and, for some perverse trick of history, so similar to the classical Greek upper classes attitude of the V century BC (your words above are very much to the point!). We discussed this *here together* a long time ago.
Which brings me to this old Englishman from London who had affection for me though said of an Italian tenor who sung beautifully but went about a London stage with puffed chest: “You cannot do THIS in this country!â€Â
At first hit by what he’d said, but then having character (and bad temper) no doubt, I thought (also because he btw had this subtler – not outspoken – way of being narcissistic, and his son too) with bits of repressed fury:
“Who THE HELL this man and this COUNTRY think they are, such a wet rainy cloudy periphery of the world with pale people and gray small creaky-staired houses shunned by Fortune and bestowed with immensely less beautiful cities & people and almost deprived of any art or music or anything pleasurable, to the extent that they being the least spoiled people of Europe they attained some success, also geography helping???â€Â
This I thought and then of course I talked a lot with his son about it, which I loved too, and his wife, a gorgeous American blonde, and we ended up over many beers and laughter with them so much (I really miss them so much, the whole family, but I confess my debased satisfaction when this poor decent old man after all visited us in Rome for the first time and was literally stunned by a beauty and papist grandeur he had never imagined possible).
I mean, everybody admires the British for their virtues. But one could say – I would say in any case – that the Italian or the French narcissism – so overt and thence so silly, ridiculous: Berlusca, Sarko, even De Gaulle ARE ridiculous, while no British politician is ridiculous – is NOTHING compared to the aristocratic feeling of the Britons, which nothing is but a mix of greatness and narcissism in its total quintessence, since it is the self-indulging contemplation of such greatness.
As usual, my love-hate relationship with the UK, such a petty European thing, and this *wild rant on anger* (I was lecturing some innocent Indian teenagers) explains my point better than anything else (I link it not to promote my writings lol)
*MoR is now leaving … his point hopefully cleared a bit, his chest puffed with silly Latin pride ….*
Hope I didn’t upset you
MoR, I’m British – of course you didn’t upset me
No, I felt that you deserve more than a quick. not-thought-through answer but events at work mean that I am rather busier than normal. I promise a decent response before the end of the weekend
Have a good weekend, of course.
MoR, I’m British – of course you didn’t upset me
You perfidious-Albion people, I know u well enough, what did you think …
*MoR being a bit relieved, but not that much …*
My dear MoR,
Now I have a few moments, I will reply to your comment above.
I think, being British is possibly the same for any Italian, as Italians are for us – i.e. from some far-flung galaxy. I mean we all look the same in appearance (more or less) but our characteristics, as I have learnt in the time I have been here, are so very different. You Italians seem to admire us British in much the same way as we British admire you Italians – albeit with the underlying thought that we would hate to actually be the other
I watch very little TV myself. Not only is it in Italian but the type of programme I used to like, I rarely find here and, even if I did, the Italian would be a significant barrier to my understanding. Of course, I should watch the trash TV just to improve my Italian, I suppose. I just can’t bring myself to do it. However, F watches some, just before sleeping and so I find myself watching a little more (and, perhaps, understanding more Italian).
I loved the story about your old friend and the fact that he was stunned by the beauty and papist grandeur (and, especially, your reaction to that).
And (with the exception of your comment about how the British politicians are not ridiculous – which, to us, they all are – although by no means in the same way as we think, say, Berlusconi is) you are correct. We may not be overtly narcissistic but, like any nation’s peoples we are, justly in our view, greater and more worthy than any of you continentals or, in fact, anyone else
– as can be seen should you be unfortunate enough to read such rags as the Daily Mail. Of course we are great. We have Great as part of one of our names for our Island so how can we not be? And, just like most of our continental cousins, we rely heavily on the past (in our case the British Empire; in your case the Greek and Roman Empires and, in both cases, what we thought we brought to the world and why the world should be forever grateful) to justify why we are so.
But, here, as a guest in your country, I bite my tongue a LOT when I hear the Italians (my friends) talk of how great this or that is because it is Italian and, therefore, inherently better. I guess that the British do the same, certainly at home. But I am a guest and have become more aware of that as time goes on, trying hard to understand a people whose very roots make them impossible for me to understand. I am sure this would be same for any country I would live in in Europe. We are all so very different and I think it is this difference that makes it hard for us to be united as one in Europe (but that is for another conversation/topic).
In the meantime, the more I am here, the more I try to understand what it is that makes me British and why, in spite of our failings (and I do not mean the silly things that other peoples pin on us, which, in any event are a generalisation and, therefore, more than likely not really true or have an element of truth that has been lost in the ‘grandness’ of the thing being pinned upon us) we remain British and in spite of our travels abroad, such as we have done for centuries, we seem to have learnt nothing from seeing and meeting all those peoples who could surely teach us something!
And in these times, with the influx (as you are struggling with now, here) of a great number of ‘foreigners’, the need to more accurately define what it is to be British remains an agonising argument for us.
As for us being ‘perfidious-Albion people’ – well, of course we are! But we would NEVER let you know that until it was far too late, of course
However, MoR, you don’t make me angry nor upset me. What you say you have reason to say. If we were all perfect it would be a boring and uninteresting world.
Worse than anything, I’m unsure my response was worth the wait for you, for which I apologise.
Worse than anything, I’m unsure my response was worth the wait for you, for which I apologise.
Don’t know if this is from your perfidious side …
but who the hell cares, it is adorable, plus yes, it definitely was worth the wait Andy.
I watch very little TV myself. Not only is it in Italian but the type of programme I used to like, I rarely find here and, even if I did, the Italian would be a significant barrier to my understanding.
Leave our TV alone since after Berlusca it is just garbage. If you care to understand to where your man belongs, and the GOOD we still may have inside, listen to our last citadel, the Rai 3 radio program, Italian culture still at its best – lots of excellent spoken stuff plus some music, it might be hard at first, but pls try, it might help you in believing in a better world. I get a alot of consolation there, but I’, confident, we’ll survive and Berlusca is not eternal.
just like most of our continental cousins, we rely heavily on the past (in our case the British Empire; in your case the Greek and Roman Empires
Pls be so fair to recognize we are not just ancient Rome. Let me make a pride’s list lol: we are the centre of a powerful world religion, with humanism and Renaissance we did shape Europe one more time from 1200 until 1550, and until the entire 1700 we were still influential in many things – take Canova or neo-Palladian architecture in the Anglo-saxon world, or music, that we totally dominated from its beginnings until the Germans arrived in 1800 (also technologically: we have invented the piano, and in Parma the Stradivari is unrivalled). Unfortunately good genes insert in the list also evil deeds, which makes me a bit ashamed, but what an achievement our illiterate south peasants attained, they being considered like animals at Ellis Island in a few years they totally outsmarted the US underworld and government (and out ‘nordic’ Italy too) until a few years ago. And yes, in this case, it’s the closest we can get to the ancient Greco-Romans.
We remain British and in spite of our travels abroad, such as we have done for centuries, we seem to have learnt nothing from seeing and meeting all those peoples who could surely teach us something!
Ah ah ah, you really made me laugh! Well, if I were gay which I am not I would MARRY YOUNOW just for this sentence Andy.
My wife read this conversation too and she liked it a lot. We’d be very pleased to have you visiting us next time you come to Rome, alone or in company.
Ciao, it is getting late.
it definitely was worth the wait
MoR, you are too, too kind, as always.
Yes, Rai 3. It looks more like BBC2/Channel 4 and therefore worth looking at. Maybe soon, as I think my understanding of Italian is improving much faster now that I’m with F and am more often in situations where Italian is spoken.
I suppose it’s different for us. The Empire was for such a long time, from the Golden Age of Elizabeth I (our love affair with the Tudor kings and queens never sated) through to the early 1900s (and for a lot of British, until the 1950s) so we always felt superior, even if, certainly in the last 60 years, it is without any real foundation. And, anyway, we cannot continue to live through the past – certainly not in the way that we do, thinking that the past, somehow, makes us more like Gods than mortals and that everything we do is right. I enjoyed your list. You should not be ashamed since in every culture and every nation there are evil-doers (take Germany and the Nazis – it does not make all Germans the same, of course and, in my opinion, Germans should not hang their head in shame because of a small number amongst them).
Your invitation is very welcome, MoR (even the one for the marriage hahahahaha – but, as you know, I am very happily ensconced in my new relationship
) and I thank both you and your wife. For certain, next time I am in Rome, I would be most delighted to spend some time with you discussing the finer points of our cultures and, maybe, the finer side of a bottle of good wine 
Until the next time. Ciao
This conversation has been a pleasure. I might make a post out of it – you know, my usual dialogues – and I would submit the text to you before so u can make any changes you like if you will. I hope you will allow me. Ciao
Indeed it has been a pleasure and of course you may create one of your posts. I am honoured that you think it worthy.
I look forward to reading it.
Ciao
Pingback: It’s a very good feeling | vandainmilan.com